I didn't know that was tonight, or that it was open to the public. Or are you just special and invited? I was hoping the copy of it would be here early so I could sneak in a viewing, but I don't see it around!
It is tonight.I think Quarry Communications got it.
Alan Quarry posted a link on the KWDG facebook page. He has 30 tickets to give away apparently! I however, cannot attend (i just found out this morning about it), but I've requested another screening on the film's site!
Hopefully it will be here and open to the public in the near future.
Ah. I knew it was a Quarry event, I just thought it was a closed Quarry event, like staff only.
I've pitched the idea of a little design-related series of films to my boss here at the cinema, but he hasn't bitten at it yet. We'll see what happens.
I've never known how the 'request screenings' thing actually works.
looks intriguing, but i wonder how relevant adverts would be in a society that wasnt based on a dead idea of infinite economic growth. the things we actually need dont require advertising. (here im thinking of things like screwdrivers, food that is good for you and other essentials. Certainly there is much more to life than just 'essentials' but I still wonder.
advertising is a form of propaganda - whether you're promoting something good, or bad - you're still using coersion to push your perspective on others...
i want to believe it can be used more for good than for 'EVIL' but somedays I just can't.
i watched it on the plane home last month. (thank you air canada for having viewing options beyond "the proposal")
in response to 'vacuity's post -
i'd like to suggest that we could approach advertising - at least for the time being - less like an all-powerful propaganda machine, and more as a tool in an already structured, and tightly-formed culture...in which, unfortunately, we've been programmed to believe that economic growth equals success and progress. (and as we know, progress is always positive. ahem.)
i also believe that advertising can also be seen as an art form. and i refuse to accept that it's simply the "art of deception" or persuasion - good advertising takes intuition and a profound understanding of how people think and live.
maybe it's so easy to hate advertising because it truly is a mirror of society.
Hey Cass! It was for Quarry, the movie was great! A lot of history there but some really good points made... especially about letting designers.. well design and do great work! The best campaigns are always the risky ones... The movie is being released Canada wide in January I think they mentioned...
I can't help but feel that my view is being attacked as cliche or juvenielle. This only reflects how well the PR industry has succeeded in misusing its position to stomp out realistic ideas - such as ending advertising all together, or at the very least, working toward the construction of a culture in which its ability to influence behaviour is severely reduced.
Ideas such as this have been marginalized so effectively that they no longer enter into the debate. They are considered absurd, or idealistic. While I don't intend to imply that you are a proponent of junk adverts - which to me is basically anything that we buy that is the equivalent to purchasing a plot in a future landfill (so most things advertised because stuff you actually need doesn't require ads). My issue is with the very nature of using any position of authority to influence someone else's behaviour.
It is fairly possible to justify anything as an 'art form'. This simple does not justify it morally.
The only ethical and responsible use of advertising is to use its own power and influence to diminish its effectiveness.
g.
ps - i love design. we need lots and lots and lots of things designed that aren't adverts.
hi greg my intention was not to attack, but to start a conversation. and not just with you, but with anyone reading pinkelephant. anyway, we succeeded!
i agree with everything you're saying. except the fact that it's even a possibility. unfortunately. advertising, PR...fox news - they're not going away. again, unfortunately. so i think (and this is just my opinion) that energy is better spent working within an understanding of that.
your argument is not cliche or juvenile. i think your argument is noble. but i also can't not think that it's somewhat of a losing battle. is the whole thing morally correct? no. i don't think telling people what to do, influencing others' behaviour, is morally just. but i think the bigger problem is the fact that people will be influenced - want(!) to be influenced.
i don't think my view is the right view - but it might be more realistic. (and so arises the question, is it ok because it's realistic. no. it's not.)
maybe it would be a sunnier world if cereal boxes were all white with black generic text reading "cornflakes" and "chocolate-flavoured puffed wheat", and cereal box designers retrained themselves to design moral compasses - and other reusable items.
you can influence people to be less susceptible to influence. it's like jujitsu.
also, when i mention marginalized thinking - your cereal box reference only reinforces the point. I mention a world without adverts and somehow its natural to jump in and start picturing something along the lines of the 'red' or 'communist' image we all have had driven into our brains. the opposite of advertising and capitalism isn't bread lines and black generic text. I could think of a million better things to put on a cereal box. and im no designer.
advertising is okay if you are having a garage sale and you put up a sign that says 'garage sale'. if you choose to create a 3D oil painting or use a pizza box and a sharpe - this is okay. there is very little coercion. still, would a pretty, well designed sign attract more customers? would the products actually be any better? who is to say what is good for you? i dont have these answers, i think it might even just lead to more questions, but this type of thinking is how we progress and how we build actual human institutions.
anyway - it's a slippery rabbit hole of thought and the starting point certainly involves using the elites current weapons against themselves. i don't expect it to just disappear, but it's good to keep your sights on the far.
to wrap things up:
i don't understand - why would you hold a view that you don't consider to be right, as your own? sounds a bit like coercion, no?
many people thought something as cruel as slavery could never come to an end. to suggest "Hey, maybe we could find a way to do this without enslaving people?" Was outside the acceptable lines of thinking, it wasn't realistic - slavery wasn't going away. not until people decided to see things differently.
I don't believe in any of that positive thinking, self delusional psychobabble, but you absolutely can be the change you want to see in the world.
phew. alright. we can talk more about this in person sometime. it is all about the exchange of ideas.
Morally or otherwise, ads have a really interesting history. I've just been going through the archives from the Times of London and looking at ads from 1785. Even there, there are truth-claims and attempts to influence, but to a modern reader these ads are quaint.
I think a really productive way to use advertising is to recognize what it does for different kinds of literacy. Most of the media material I consume in a day (sadly) is market-driven. It's a language we, in the west, understand pretty well and it makes advertisers respond by using new and different idioms to persuade. The tension keeps readers sharp and aware and advertisers adaptable.
I'd like to believe that ads and art can overlap, and that conscientious marketers know where to draw the lines when it come to selling to children or propagating culturally determined values within the content (or medium) of their work. But there are plenty of marketers who aren't concerned about impressionable minds and are after a quick buck.
There are plenty of ways to persuade people, whether its where to spend their money or what to think or how to feel or for whom to vote. It kind of falls to the rest of us to be well-enough read to understand when we're being sold something and be discerning enough to recognize a false promise.
You (all perhaps) should watch 'Objectified', it talks about the materialistic culture, and how most objects are already in landfills and how if things were well designed to begin with we wouldn't need to keep buying things... One man says if he could launch an multi-billion dollar ad campaign, it would be promoting the things we already own. Neat idea.
The movie in general is also just really interesting and inspiring for me.
I didn't know that was tonight, or that it was open to the public. Or are you just special and invited?
ReplyDeleteI was hoping the copy of it would be here early so I could sneak in a viewing, but I don't see it around!
It is tonight.I think Quarry Communications got it.
ReplyDeleteAlan Quarry posted a link on the KWDG facebook page. He has 30 tickets to give away apparently!
I however, cannot attend (i just found out this morning about it), but I've requested another screening on the film's site!
Hopefully it will be here and open to the public in the near future.
Ah.
ReplyDeleteI knew it was a Quarry event, I just thought it was a closed Quarry event, like staff only.
I've pitched the idea of a little design-related series of films to my boss here at the cinema, but he hasn't bitten at it yet. We'll see what happens.
I've never known how the 'request screenings' thing actually works.
looks intriguing, but i wonder how relevant adverts would be in a society that wasnt based on a dead idea of infinite economic growth. the things we actually need dont require advertising. (here im thinking of things like screwdrivers, food that is good for you and other essentials. Certainly there is much more to life than just 'essentials' but I still wonder.
ReplyDeleteadvertising is a form of propaganda - whether you're promoting something good, or bad - you're still using coersion to push your perspective on others...
i want to believe it can be used more for good than for 'EVIL' but somedays I just can't.
art and copy is so good!
ReplyDeletei watched it on the plane home last month.
(thank you air canada for having viewing options beyond "the proposal")
in response to 'vacuity's post -
i'd like to suggest that we could approach advertising - at least for the time being - less like an all-powerful propaganda machine, and more as a tool in an already structured, and tightly-formed culture...in which, unfortunately, we've been programmed to believe that economic growth equals success and progress. (and as we know, progress is always positive. ahem.)
i also believe that advertising can also be seen as an art form. and i refuse to accept that it's simply the "art of deception" or persuasion - good advertising takes intuition and a profound understanding of how people think and live.
maybe it's so easy to hate advertising because it truly is a mirror of society.
Hey Cass! It was for Quarry, the movie was great! A lot of history there but some really good points made... especially about letting designers.. well design and do great work! The best campaigns are always the risky ones... The movie is being released Canada wide in January I think they mentioned...
ReplyDeletepws,
ReplyDeleteI can't help but feel that my view is being attacked as cliche or juvenielle. This only reflects how well the PR industry has succeeded in misusing its position to stomp out realistic ideas - such as ending advertising all together, or at the very least, working toward the construction of a culture in which its ability to influence behaviour is severely reduced.
Ideas such as this have been marginalized so effectively that they no longer enter into the debate. They are considered absurd, or idealistic. While I don't intend to imply that you are a proponent of junk adverts - which to me is basically anything that we buy that is the equivalent to purchasing a plot in a future landfill (so most things advertised because stuff you actually need doesn't require ads). My issue is with the very nature of using any position of authority to influence someone else's behaviour.
It is fairly possible to justify anything as an 'art form'. This simple does not justify it morally.
The only ethical and responsible use of advertising is to use its own power and influence to diminish its effectiveness.
g.
ps - i love design. we need lots and lots and lots of things designed that aren't adverts.
hi greg
ReplyDeletemy intention was not to attack, but to start a conversation.
and not just with you, but with anyone reading pinkelephant.
anyway, we succeeded!
i agree with everything you're saying.
except the fact that it's even a possibility. unfortunately.
advertising, PR...fox news - they're not going away. again, unfortunately. so i think (and this is just my opinion) that energy is better spent working within an understanding of that.
your argument is not cliche or juvenile. i think your argument is noble. but i also can't not think that it's somewhat of a losing battle. is the whole thing morally correct? no. i don't think telling people what to do, influencing others' behaviour, is morally just. but i think the bigger problem is the fact that people will be influenced - want(!) to be influenced.
i don't think my view is the right view - but it might be more realistic. (and so arises the question, is it ok because it's realistic. no. it's not.)
maybe it would be a sunnier world if cereal boxes were all white with black generic text reading "cornflakes" and "chocolate-flavoured puffed wheat", and cereal box designers retrained themselves to design moral compasses - and other reusable items.
pip
ps. it's hard to type while waving a white flag.
you can influence people to be less susceptible to influence. it's like jujitsu.
ReplyDeletealso, when i mention marginalized thinking - your cereal box reference only reinforces the point. I mention a world without adverts and somehow its natural to jump in and start picturing something along the lines of the 'red' or 'communist' image we all have had driven into our brains. the opposite of advertising and capitalism isn't bread lines and black generic text. I could think of a million better things to put on a cereal box. and im no designer.
advertising is okay if you are having a garage sale and you put up a sign that says 'garage sale'. if you choose to create a 3D oil painting or use a pizza box and a sharpe - this is okay. there is very little coercion. still, would a pretty, well designed sign attract more customers? would the products actually be any better? who is to say what is good for you? i dont have these answers, i think it might even just lead to more questions, but this type of thinking is how we progress and how we build actual human institutions.
anyway - it's a slippery rabbit hole of thought and the starting point certainly involves using the elites current weapons against themselves. i don't expect it to just disappear, but it's good to keep your sights on the far.
to wrap things up:
i don't understand - why would you hold a view that you don't consider to be right, as your own? sounds a bit like coercion, no?
many people thought something as cruel as slavery could never come to an end. to suggest "Hey, maybe we could find a way to do this without enslaving people?" Was outside the acceptable lines of thinking, it wasn't realistic - slavery wasn't going away. not until people decided to see things differently.
I don't believe in any of that positive thinking, self delusional psychobabble, but you absolutely can be the change you want to see in the world.
phew. alright. we can talk more about this in person sometime. it is all about the exchange of ideas.
best,
g.
I like it Cassie.
ReplyDeleteMorally or otherwise, ads have a really interesting history. I've just been going through the archives from the Times of London and looking at ads from 1785. Even there, there are truth-claims and attempts to influence, but to a modern reader these ads are quaint.
I think a really productive way to use advertising is to recognize what it does for different kinds of literacy. Most of the media material I consume in a day (sadly) is market-driven. It's a language we, in the west, understand pretty well and it makes advertisers respond by using new and different idioms to persuade. The tension keeps readers sharp and aware and advertisers adaptable.
I'd like to believe that ads and art can overlap, and that conscientious marketers know where to draw the lines when it come to selling to children or propagating culturally determined values within the content (or medium) of their work. But there are plenty of marketers who aren't concerned about impressionable minds and are after a quick buck.
There are plenty of ways to persuade people, whether its where to spend their money or what to think or how to feel or for whom to vote. It kind of falls to the rest of us to be well-enough read to understand when we're being sold something and be discerning enough to recognize a false promise.
Caveat emptor.
You (all perhaps) should watch 'Objectified', it talks about the materialistic culture, and how most objects are already in landfills and how if things were well designed to begin with we wouldn't need to keep buying things... One man says if he could launch an multi-billion dollar ad campaign, it would be promoting the things we already own. Neat idea.
ReplyDeleteThe movie in general is also just really interesting and inspiring for me.